On this week's episode of the Building Interest Podcast, we are joined by Sandy Armstrong, Leader Bank’s Assistant Vice President of Talent Management, to discuss how to develop leadership skills and the importance of personal and professional growth. Sandy talks about her passion for inspiring change and the ways in which she has made a difference in Leader Bank's career development efforts.

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Episode Transcript

Greg Farber:
Welcome to the Building Interest Podcast presented by Leader Bank. In season two of the podcast, we are exploring what it means to be a leader through conversations with leaders from the Bank, from within the communities we serve, and from across the banking and technology industries. Each conversation will focus on our guest's personal leadership journey, and provide insights on what it means to be a good leader. In our last episode, we heard from Leader Bank's First Vice President of Strategy and Planning, Dennis Walker, and Chris Verzone, Vice President and Sales Manager, to discuss the idea of intrapreneurship, and building a product from idea to launch within the Bank. Today, we are joined by Sandy Armstrong, Leader Bank's, Assistant Vice President of Talent Management, to discuss how to develop leadership skills and the importance of growth, both professionally and personally. Welcome, Sandy.

Sandy Armstrong:  
Thanks, Greg. I'm happy to be here.

Greg Farber:  
I think it's exciting. I'm glad you could make the time. And I think this will be a really interesting insight, because we've talked to people about sort of the leadership roles that they have, organically. And you're here to support not only your own leadership that we're going to talk about but also everyone else's leadership. So I want to start with, we have so many titles, these days, everybody has a very nuanced title. So not everybody may be familiar with the term talent management if you could just tell us a bit about what that role means at Leader, what department that even falls under and what your day-to-day entails as a talent manager. 

Sandy Armstrong:  
Awesome, happy to do so I think, as you say day-to-day, I think it changes day to day sometimes. But you know, the main focus is how do we grow and develop the talent that we have within the Bank, whether that's creating some new training programs, or, you know, e-learnings. And sometimes it's meeting one on one with certain team members and, you know, coaching them on certain skills, it's having those conversations and making sure that those development conversations are happening. And it's also looking at the talent that we have, you know, how are we positioned with that? What are the, you know, quote, unquote, skills in the future that we may need? And how do we support the people that we have here? And, you know, some of that's even looking at, like, is their an opportunity to set up some sort of like rotational program for some people, you know, it's not always training, per se, but looking at a lot of those types of things. And I also do, you know, play in other areas of human resources as well, that's where the team I sit on is human resources. And you know, sometimes I help out with recruiting or I'll, you know, field some general HR questions. So it really kind of changes day to day. And it's, to me that keeps it exciting. And it's no two days are ever the same. And I can't say I have a boring day.

Greg Farber:
No, I hear that. So what basically, I guess your focus is really on the growth and development of our current team members. And we hear so much and I think we've spoken about it with another guest previously on this podcast, really about getting the right talent in the door. But you're not trying to get talent in the door, you're saying, that's already been done. We've already done our job there. We've got the talent in the door. Now we want to make sure what we're developing... what's the goal? Why is it so important to develop our current team members?

Sandy Armstrong:  
There's so much talent there, there's so much to work with already there. And why wouldn't we want to bring up talent from within the organization to become the next leaders? You know, you want to constantly be thinking about what's next, where am I going next in my career, but you want to learn your current role, but always be looking towards that future. And, you know, you want to make sure that you, as a leader are, you know, growing that, listening to what your team member wants, and working to their, their strengths and helping them build up their weaknesses. So you want to just make sure that you're nurturing that development?

Greg Farber:
Do you find that you work more with the individual team member or with their manager? Is it a combination of both to kind of find that path for them?

Sandy Armstrong:  
It truly is kind of both, right? Because, you know, sometimes, we as team members have a particular view of what our skill set is, and how our skill set is perceived. And sometimes our manager may have a different view of that. So it's, you know, sometimes it's trying to, you know, bring those together and figure out, okay, so you know, you think you're here, your manager thinks you're here, how do we, how do we kind of lessen that gap and get to where everybody's in a better place with it? And it's not necessarily like... development is not a bad thing. It's not a naughty word. Everybody should have a development plan because it's your growth. It's where you're going.

Greg Farber:  
Definitely. And it sounds like what you want to accomplish here, if I'm hearing this correctly, is that you want to align the goals that the manager has the employee each have so that they can essentially grow together rather than be at odds with one another.

Sandy Armstrong:   
100%.

Greg Farber: 
So now on the bigger picture side of it, and I've attended some of your training and programs and gone through some of also the the the automated things that you guys have put in place, you're always super prepared super bright, super engaged, the word passionate comes to mind in what you do. Is that just who you are, did you develop that passion? How did you come to be this passionate person that's always putting forward all these great ideas and great plans?

Sandy Armstrong:  
It took a lot of time and effort. I, you know, honestly, I remember like, way back when, when I was a little kid like sitting at home and playing school and always wanting to be like the teacher and, you know, having my grade book and, you know, giving people their different grades. So it was always kind of in me that I wanted to do something with teaching. And even as I grew through, like, elementary school, middle school, high school, you had those certain, certain teachers, certain people that really had an impact on you. And maybe, you know, for me, a lot of it was they help build my confidence, or they helped me to see things from a different perspective. And so I always kind of had that "I want to teach" type of mentality. And, you know, even getting off to college, I started out in secondary ed for biology. Chemistry was not my friend. So I ended up going into business in hopes that maybe one day I would get to teach in some way, shape, or form.

Greg Farber:
So you kind of always knew this is what you wanted to do, you just didn't know exactly where you would end up doing what you wanted to do. 

Sandy Armstrong:  
100%.

Greg Farber:
You mentioned teachers along the way, kind of just a segue into this, since we are talking about leadership and a particular sort of moments, we don't have to single out any specific teachers or anything but just a moment or something that happened that that showed you, you're gonna be good at this. This is the path you want to go on, like you said they built up your confidence.

Sandy Armstrong:   
You know, thinking about it, there was no like, specific moment, it was little moments along the way. Like, I remember, one teacher, particularly in eighth grade, that was like, "Hey, you don't belong in this class, we need to put you in the more accelerated version of this class." And to me, it was like, "wow, me? Little old me, you want to do that?" And, you know, so that kind of helped. And like, she worked with me and got me up to speed, so I was able to make that pivot. And then, you know, when you when I got into later parts, too, like, there were certain teachers that like, you know, I thought you could only be really good at like English and history and not math and science. And I was a straight-A student in English. I don't know how looking back now in history, and then I had a teacher that's like, hey, that it doesn't have to be that way. And I ended up you know, going into college majoring in biology because of that one particular teacher. So you know, it was, they just had that kind of effect. And it's like, it's somebody besides your mom and dad, you know, your family members who I'll tell you that you're great. And you know, you kind of feel like, hey, that's your job, you brought me into the world again, tell me I'm great. But to have somebody from the outside, come in and tell you, Hey, you can do it. You know, you're great. You can do it that truly impacted me. And just to see that and how that made me feel wanted. It made me want to do that for somebody else.

Greg Farber: 
No, the one thing I really sort of caught on to with what you were saying there was the "little old me." And I really do think there is a lot of sort of "little old me" syndrome in folks in general. And I've certainly sort of been held back by that as well. You look at it and you think, "Wait, they want me to do something?" And you're absolutely right. But that is part of what you know, you can go on the internet, you can Google qualities of a great leader and you'll get 500 million responses and everybody has their own thing. But somewhere in there that ability to inspire and provide confidence always makes the list. So I think that's, that's a great example that that you brought there. So then what did your professional journey look like before you came to Leader Bank? I know you said you weren't gonna go be a chemistry teacher. Did you have other roles in between that kind of shaped your way coming to coming here?

Sandy Armstrong:   
Yeah, so you know, when I first started out, I actually was a teller...

Greg Farber:
at Leader or at another bank?

Sandy Armstrong:    
Another bank, 100 years ago. And I ended up making the pivot to work for another company that I stayed at for 14 years. And I started out in their customer service. So I was servicing homeowners, auto, umbrella policies, etc. And I was there for like four years and I was like, you know, this is great, but I want something more. And I made the decision that I was gonna go back for my MBA, like four or five years after graduating with my bachelor's. And I decided at that point, like, again, I had had a part in kind of training and developing some of the people in the team, I became the, the Lead Service Specialist. And, you know, it was all that, like, I really like helping people. So I did my MBA with a concentration in human resources. And, you know, at that point, I started talking to my manager, like, hey, I want to get into HR. I know, we have an HR department, how do I get there? So you know, he started kind of poking around, and I had some interviews, which caused me to move from Connecticut up to Boston, and I joined the HR team up there, so you're, you know, handling like leaves, and new hires, terminations, workers comp, all of those things. And, you know, I was there for quite a while, another like three or four years, and I was like, hey, this is not what I wanted. And we started this, like, new program of where we're rolling out this new management system, where it's "think harder or think smarter, not harder". And like, you know, root cause problem solving, and all of these things that were just so amazing. So I took an opportunity, and I was like, You know what, this working in this call center is not going to get me to the training that I want to do. So I took a leap of faith and took a sidestep, it was not a promotion, it was, you know, nothing like that. But I ended up taking the leap to being a training coordinator, where basically, I was making sure that there was food for the training programs, the materials showed up on time and everybody knew where they were supposed to be that we had space. And, you know, all of that stuff. And, you know, it was great for a while and I got to go sit in on some of the classes...

Greg Farber: 
But it was everything other than the actual training, which is what you wanted to do. So you were in the right department, but you still weren't quite in the right job.

Sandy Armstrong:    
Yes. And thankfully, I had some great mentors there that started bringing me in and like letting me do the welcome kickoff calls, right? And, you know, I realized through sitting in on the training programs, like okay, I want to go out and be a coach, work in the business, and teach the leaders how to do this. And I did that for a year. And I worked with two different departments that helped them on their journey. And then I ended up landing finally my training job after that year, I was a trainer for an analyst development program working on soft skills. So like presentation skills, making the business case, you know, kind of it was for kids coming fresh out of college, like how to work in a professional environment. And I fell in love.

Greg Farber:  
Well, it sounds to me, like "little old me" came to Leader with lots of big experience, having sort of seen it all on both sides of everything. So thank you for sharing kind of what that how that worked to shape who you are. And that brings me to let's talk a little bit about your personal brand of leadership and what you've brought to the Bank. Can you tell us about some initiatives that you've headed up here at Leader Bank that, you know, work to promote that professional development that we talked about?

Sandy Armstrong:    
Yeah, absolutely. So I have been doing a lot of currently, I've been doing a lot of team building with some of our teams within the Bank and focusing on building trust and communication skills. And I love doing that because you see that kind of "aha" moment in the team members where it's like, oh...

Greg Farber: 
This is like a group setting type of thing. You bring everyone together and kind of work on that with them.

Sandy Armstrong:    
Yep. So that's been a big part of my focus lately. I've also done and I know you've taken a couple of my classes, Greg, with you know, kind of leading at Leader Bank and working on some of the, you know, core leadership skills and figuring out well, what is a one on one? How do I you know, delegate some of my work and that type of thing? And then we did do a coaching one, I want to revamp that one. And you know, outside of that what keeps me busy is that we started the leadership out of the office program or the Bank knows that as LOOP. And that one takes up a bit of my time and I love it. It's you know, basically nine of our senior leaders have, you know, given up their time to meet once a quarter with everybody in the Bank. So each leader has their own group. And we come up with different activities and things to do during those quarterly sessions. And can be some professional development. It can be some, you know, reading an article or listening to a podcast type of thing, just to, you know, kind of hone in on the culture. We went remote, you know, through the pandemic, so not everybody knows each other can't get together, etc. So it's a way to bring people together and to really kind of work on pushing our values for our mission or vision. In are about, you know, all of pushing all of that forward.

Greg Farber:
Absolutely. And what I think was cool about the loop meetings is that it's not everyone that you typically work with, it's across the various departments' mix of people. So you are kind of forced to get to know folks that you might not work with on a daily basis and build that trust in that relationship. So was this a need that you saw? Or how did you decide this is what we need in order to engage folks in the like, the loop program, or these manager meetings or other things that you mentioned?

Sandy Armstrong:    
So the loop program came out, when we kind of rebranded and came out with our brand Bible, and it you know, the senior leaders have kind of been talking together and like, we need to do something where we can really drive this culture forward,

Greg Farber: 
Find a way to share the Bible and connect with people.

Sandy Armstrong:    
Yep, get a pulse and see what was going on. So, you know, they, they kind of had some of the ideas put together before they even approached me. And it was, you know, at that point that I kind of ran with it and started putting together the different ideas. And, you know, to your point, it was a painstaking process, trying to figure out how do you split up, you know, 400 team members, and get it where you're not with your, you know, somebody that's directly in your line of supervision as your, you know, senior leader, and you're not working with all the people that you work with on a day to day basis.

Greg Farber:
So this was much more involved than just names from a hat to randomize it, there was a conscious effort of who went where, type of thing.

Sandy Armstrong:   
Yes, and I was thankful to find some friends along the way that had much more advanced Excel skills than I have. And they created a lot of functions to kind of divvy it up. So there wasn't too many from each department or, you know, trying to get it where maybe you weren't necessarily in like your direct supervisor's group, or, you know, if you were in retail banking, Dorothy wasn't going to be your leader, because you work with her regularly. So you'd end up with somebody else. So I am very thankful for friends along the way. Otherwise, it would have been a lot of, "let's see, let's look at this name, where should you go?"

Greg Farber: 
I feel like that's a common theme that we've had in some of the other episodes as well, that leadership begets leadership, and you need people along the way, who's led you, in order for you to be the good leader, to then turn around and create that next round of leaders that we mentioned at the beginning of the chat here to bring that next sort of generation of leaders along. All of this is obviously coming, as we said, inside sort of the scope of the HR department. And when we spoke offline the other day, I commented as I have often recently to anyone that will listen on the really the tremendous growth that I've seen over the last few years in our own HR department here at Leader. And I think we all know someone that works at a company where human resources are neither very personal nor very resourceful, right? And so we touched on this idea of it being truly both human and a resource. Can you kind of elaborate a little bit on that for our listeners, and maybe how the growth and the expansion of our team, not just throwing bodies at the problem, but these conscious decisions of having a talent manager and not just an HR representative works for that human resource experience.

Sandy Armstrong:  
You know, I started about two and a half years ago, and things have just, like, changed exponentially in the department, you know, like thinking about certain things, like even, I think this is gonna talk a little bit to some of the innovation too, but like, just how much has changed truly, since I started.

Greg Farber:
Not just new people, but new ideas in the department?

Sandy Armstrong:   
New ideas, new processes, so like, you know, hey, they saw a need for training and development, I was brought on as an HR training and development manager. I was very fortunate that you know, fairly quickly I was promoted to the AVP of Talent Management. But they saw a need, they made a pivot and a change to get there. You know, we had somebody else that joined in, it was like an HR business partner or something like that. And we saw a need where, hey, we needed a benefits specialist. So, you know, we brought on somebody in that role. And it's like looking at where are the gaps, and how can we fill them? And now you get to a point where the newest person we just brought onto the team comes with a wealth of knowledge and experience, and is really helping us kind of stand up some other things and start looking at, you know, processes and different things that we can do differently to stay ahead of the game when it comes to like, you know, benefits programs when it comes to employee relations type things. So we're constantly looking for like how do we do it better? How do we improve the process? What are the gaps, what are people kind of saying, you know, like, in, you know, to that point to even thinking of, you know, when I first started I remember being like to update my direct deposit, I have to email my own group? And you know, why? And so you know, now hey, you can go into ADP, and you can update your direct deposit, you know, people who just have to email the tell us that they had moved, hey, you can go right into ADP, you can update your address tell us that, you know, that send something over to notify us that you've moved. And it's, you know, just looking at a lot of different things like how we were doing things and how we could do it better, is truly I think what happened and I think you can attribute a lot of that to Wes, like he is just this like truly amazing leader who listens and tries to think outside the box and, and pushes you to think of different ways to do things in different ways to kind of, wow, our own client, if you will, which would be you know, kind of like all of the team members here at Leader or, you know, like our clients.

Greg Farber:
For what it's worth it's working, because I mean, that was my comment, right? We've gone from, from really a lot of growth in that area to where I see it as a resource. And it sounds like from what you're describing that yes, we've grown in terms of adding new technology and new features and things to kind of just, maybe not even forge so far ahead, but almost just to keep us competitive, like you said, why shouldn't you be able to go into ADP and set up your own thing, but also doing it somewhat organically, as you mentioned, hiring someone, and then understanding where they would fit better. And really leveraging their skills and their leadership in a slightly different role, perhaps then we first had. And that sounds like exactly the kind of thing that would make sure that we have the right people in the right place. And then you have a better relationship.

Sandy Armstrong:
Absolutely. 100% agree with that.

Greg Farber:
So it's not just throwing bodies at the problem. The right body at the right problem.

Sandy Armstrong:    
Well, you know, and even if you look at that, like we've updated our hiring process through the years, too. I know you are currently one of our talent assessors. So you're, you're helping along in that process. So many things have come up so that it's not just we need a body. We need a body.

Greg Farber:
Right. We need it fast. We need it now. We need it yesterday. No, we take the time to think about it and do it right.. And you're absolutely right.

Sandy Armstrong:    
Yeah, and an even bigger focus on onboarding. You know, Wes took the time, he I think he set up about 30 meetings with me to meet with most managers and leaders to like, you know, say a quick hello. And, you know, I remember like coming in and seeing all those invites on my calendar and being like, Oh, my goodness. But you know, you look back and it's like, that was so helpful. Because A I started remotely, it was 2020 We weren't allowed in the office, you know, and B, I got to talk to everybody and see where the gaps were, what I could do, how I could be effective and jump right in and do stuff.

Greg Farber:
So you know, we had one of those calls. And I mean, right off the bat, that meant I knew your face, I knew your voice. I knew who you were. And that was a huge step also with being hired remotely. And with a pandemic, and not knowing everyone, there was an immediate, you know, ability to connect with someone there that we wouldn't have had if we hadn't had those meetings set up. So you're absolutely right. You mentioned innovation a little bit ago, and I know you talked about, you know, just updating some changes in ADP. I know, there's also the articulate training program and things. Are there any other enhancements or new innovations coming up that you're excited about? That you can talk about? Is it all top secret?

Sandy Armstrong:  
No. So we're, you know, we're still looking at different ways to enhance ADP, you know, we're looking at, I believe, now it's almost ready to go live. So hopefully, by the time this goes live, it will be ready. You know, one of the biggest pain points and questions that we get in HR, specifically towards the end of the year is what do I have left for time off? And, you know, we've made updates now where you can like, go in and look like, hey, what am I going to have for time on December 31 of 2023? And it'll show you all the time you're going to accrue so that you can keep better track of of your own time off. And hopefully, you know, I'm going to say that time of year will probably result in about 40 to 50% fewer questions for us, I hope.

Greg Farber:
Which sounds to me like 40 to 50% happier managers, team members, and everyone else because they don't have to go be frustrated and get an answer that they can just now get themselves.

Sandy Armstrong:   
Yes. 100%. And we're also you know, looking at different modules for like, or how do we modules? How do we take like, you know, performance management or not yet, like our annual review process, write it. Now we introduced it a year or two ago to put it in ADP instead of on a piece of paper. And, you know, so what does the next level of that look like? You know, how do we enhance that or are we using that module in ADP correctly? So it's looking at those types of things and seeing where where we can make more efficiencies there are trying to create some dashboards to make it a little bit easier for managers to look at things.

Greg Farber:  
What kind of response do you see to those initiatives? Do you think that this human and resourceful department is getting noticed by team members, and maybe inspiring them to be better as well?

Sandy Armstrong:    
I don't know yet. Because... 

Greg Farber:  
Or does it all fly under the radar? Like, it's just everyone's sort of like, well, that's the word that's the baseline, that's where we should be

Sandy Armstrong:  
So it's hard to say I think a lot of people, get a mixed response. So like, you know, even when we put the annual reviews into ADP, mixed response, some people love it, it's all in one place. It's easy, and it's great. It works. Some people don't ever sign into ADP, and it's frustrating to have to sign it. And so you're never gonna, you're never gonna get any better. Everybody together with the time off thing. We haven't announced it live yet. I first see that making a lot of people happy, as you said, and some of the other things I was talking about are stuff that we're starting to work on. So I don't think anybody really knows a whole lot of it yet. Gotcha. I think, for some of it.

Greg Farber: 
So I'm glad we're highlighting some of these improvements here today, then, because this is good stuff. And people should know about that's,

Sandy Armstrong:   
yeah. And I think even you know, I think some people will be excited for it. And I think some people will be like, Okay, it's finally doing what it should do.

Greg Farber: 
So before we wrap up here, I want to really put you on the spot. When we invited you to come here, you said that being on a podcast is about the furthest thing possible from your comfort zone. And yet somehow, maybe in a way, exactly that's why you agreed to do it. And so, you know, I love that you're not only challenging our team members out there and everything, but clearly, you're also willing to challenge yourself. So the question is, what's next for Sandy? Not what's next for a talent manager? Not what's next for ADP? What's coming up for Sandy? What challenges or goals do you have coming up that you want to conquer?

Sandy Armstrong:   
That's the question of the hour, I feel like, I feel like in so many ways, I've accomplished so much of my goals already, but I still have more to go like, Hey, you can always grow, learn, develop. But like when I think back to, you know, "little old me", I remember my teachers asking my parents, like, does she even talk at home? You know, so to have overcome that, that shyness, that that fear and to keep growing and like, hey, like, now I run these meetings with like, 400 team members at the Bank. You know, you look, you have to look back and celebrate those small wins along the way. And I think for me, like going forward, it's taking a deeper dive into what can I do to myself to become a better leader. You know, we sit there and we talk about that. And it's how do I, how do I take some of the things I've been reading? And how do I take some of the, you know, the material that I've taught and apply it to myself?

Greg Farber:  
Take our brand value of continuous improvement and turn it more into self-improvement, and spend some of that, that inspiration in that effort that you're putting forth for all of us, and turn some of it on yourself.

Sandy Armstrong:    
You know, like I want to, I've been playing with the idea of doing some sort of certification or something. And it's a big commitment, right? It's a time commitment. It's going to be outside of the nine-to-five and I had some personal stuff going on for a while where that wasn't possible. And now, now it's possible again, so I'm thinking about, you know, doing something like that and giving up a weekend day or weekend day, you each weekend to kind of focus on that professional growth piece of it and learn something new and something I can bring back and move in teach to everybody here or help some other people within learning it. It's, for me, it's that continual growth thing, but it's also like, you know, we're our own worst enemies. You know, I, you always have like the angel and the devil sitting on either side of your shoulders daily, or at least I do, and maybe I'm crazy. That devil always tells me you can't do it. You're not good enough...

Greg Farber:  
Who little old you?

Sandy Armstrong:   
Little old me. Whereas, you know, the angel says to me, like, hey, look at how far you've come, hey, you know, you're not there yet. Keep going. And so, you know, for me, it's a constant battle between the two of those but hoping that the little angel wins out at the end of it.

Greg Farber: 
No, I think that's a great message. Because, you know, there's been many songs that you know, have this kind of, quote, mentality in leadership books and anything else. If you I mean, safety record regulations on airplanes, you got to take care of yourself before you can actually take care of other people, right? So I love this idea that your next goal is to turn the lens a little bit on yourself and work on your own self-improvement because you've done such a great job for all of us, and I really want to thank you for taking the time today and telling us about all of this wonderful stuff that's going on and your personal leadership journey. Feel free. Any other last thoughts you may have? And again, thank you so much for taking the time today, Sandy.

Sandy Armstrong:  
Thank you for having me. And yeah, this was definitely outside of my comfort zone. You know, the shy little kid that didn't talk in school before. So thank you for making it comfortable and easy, and happy to be here.

Greg Farber: 
For more information on today's subject, visit leaderbank.com. In addition to past episodes, you can also find our corresponding blog entries for more insights. This podcast is a production of Leader Bank, N.A equal housing lender, member FDIC. NMLS number 449250